DeMarcus Cousins Discussion: Addendum « Queen City Hoops

DeMarcus Cousins Discussion: Addendum

Henry Abbott and Amin Elhassan get together on TrueHoop TV to discuss DeMarcus Cousins: The situation in Sacramento, his potential, and his future.

Additionally, a quick response to some of the comments from the original post:

I can think of an offer SAC would have a hard time refusing and it’s Biyombo, Henderson, the POR pick, the DET pick and the Bobcats take back Jimmer.
-Master Ichiro

That’s not that hard to refuse: The Portland pick is going to be at best 13th overall (I just don’t see them missing the playoffs three straight seasons, with their primary duo of Aldridge and Lilard). The Detroit pick is more valuable, but not immediately, because of similar restrictions. And Gerald Henderson is not a star – he’s a borderline starter on a good team.

I agree with Sam, I don’t see us trading Kemba. Especially when we labeled him PG of the future.
-Dan

Kemba has been great for the Bobcats this year – he has improved greatly from last year and is helping to lead the team. But Ramon Sessions has been almost as good and is cheaper. Kemba is not untouchable – and good big men are harder to find than good guards. Again, we’d prefer to hold on to Kemba as well, but let’s not repeat the Bobcats’ mistake of a point guard over a big (D.J. over Brook Lopez).

There’s a tendency to overvalue your own team’s players and in our discussion we tried to account for that. Try bouncing some of these trade ideas off Kings fans you know and gauge their reactions. We’d be glad to include any responses received as a follow-up to the follow-up.

30 comments to DeMarcus Cousins Discussion: Addendum

  • Catnap

    Re: trading Kemba for Cousins, I hate to use comparisons but I’m pretty sure that the Blazers wouldn’t trade Lillard for Cousins, so why should the Bobcats trade Kemba for Cousins who is having a statistically parallel season to Lillard and their basically the same age. Trading Kemba for Cousins would be a step in the wrong direction for the Bobcats because they wouldn’t be getting any better immediately and Cousins’ immaturity will only worsen with a even more laughingstock organization than the Kings like the Bobcats. If you trade for Cousins, it’s to pair him with Kemba, not exchange.

  • Spencer-SDS

    I feel like Christmas came right on back^^-thank you Brett

    Tried to take a screen shot of a trade scenario but it went like so:
    This Trade is Successful!

    Charlotte Bobcats
    Owed Tax
    -$12,248,093
    Cap Room
    $8,412
    Player Salary PER

    John Salmons $8,083,000 12.7
    SF 3 Years
    D. Cousins $3,880,800 19.7
    C 2 Years
    T. Outlaw $3,000,000 11.8
    SF 3 Years

    Acquiring 3 Players
    $14,963,800
    Hollinger’s Analysis: +5 Wins
    With this trade you have increased this team’s projected wins by 5.

    Sacramento Kings
    Owed Tax
    -$12,382,369
    Cap Room
    $119,369
    Player Salary PER

    D. Diop $7,372,200 7.6
    C 1 Year
    G. Henderson $3,101,327 16.4
    SG 1 Year
    B. Mullens $2,253,062 12.4
    C 1 Year

    Acquiring 3 Players
    $12,726,589
    Hollinger’s Analysis: -3 Wins
    With this trade you have decreased this team’s projected wins by 3.

    Tried to clean it up for you guys and a couple of notes:
    I put Mullen’s in to replace Haywood for the time being. I believe he can be traded in a couple more weeks??? Please correct me if I am wrong.

    What happens: basically we get the talent, they get rid of the bad contracts while getting a young SG/SF that give them options to trade Evans or any of the other back logged players they have.

    By Charlotte getting Talent, I mean we get ONE talented piece, Cousins. Salmons is a 3 yr 8 mill per yea deal…that is TERRIBLE for him, really if we did get him, i’d expect us to amnesty him as soon as possible…Then we get Outlaw, not really talented, alright bench player that doesn’t get too many minutes in that back logged court. But once again he is a 3 year contract (only 1 mill per year this time) and free’s them up from long term expenses.

    Kings: One talent, one good backup, one terrible backup, two expiring contracts, one cheap contract. Henderson is a starting SG in this league, but with this we move on to Jeff Taylor, who also happens to be cheaper and not having a rookie contract come up. Diop, expiring contract, they basically just kick off 2 years of Salmon’s contract. Haywood good role playing Center. -his contract is also Cheaper then Mullen’s (but for 4 years rather then the 1 remainder)

    Basically i’m relying on the Kings trying to get rid of big contracts that won’t help them long term and them being sick of Cousins-who with a new scenario hopefully with help (it will unlikely fix nor will his attitude-which he could be good enough to hold)

    Also the Bobcats will have to give up either one or both of Portland and Detroit’s pick…hopefully if this trade does happen Cousins doesn’t make us TO good and get us in the playoffs in some miracle(would lose are pick to Chicago)

  • RobC

    I fully agree that if you trade for Cosins is to pair him with Kemba, not exchange them. Also, although Sessions is good, he is not and will not be better than Kemba. I also believe Cousins will do a lot better with the Bobcats and Haywood may be a good reason why. The Kings are a far worst organization than the Bobcats and since Cousins joined, they had no real veteran presence to mentor their youn players. Haywood and Gordon (and maybe Sessions) will fit that roll along with Steohen Silas (who worked with people like Stephen Jackson), maybe even having Jordan as a boss will help. If there is a trade for Cousins, Kemba and MKG should be off the table, everyone else is expendable.

  • RobC

    Spencer – that trade is not realistic unless you swap Mullens with Bismack. Also, the Bobcats (or any team) can only amnesty a player if the player was on the roster at the time the CBA was signed. In other words, the Bobcats cannot anmesty any player they get/receive in a trade. Only Henderson, Diop and Thomas are the only players elegible for amnesty in the Bobcats roster.

  • charlottean

    diop and henderson aren’t because their deadline passed. we don’t need to amnesty anybody we have a TON of cap room going forward.

    giving up a lot for cousins doesn’t make sense. too much baggage to give up the house for him on talent alone. guys like him are usually obtained for 2nd round picks in times of desperation. for some reason, he is commanding a TON of attention. I know the talent is there, but that gets you so far when he’s tearing apart your locker room.

    mullens, henderson and the 2 conditional picks should be the max of the deal. OR the upcoming draft pick straight up. giving up bismack AND kemba………or rather either of the 2……doesn’t make any sense.

    you might draft for size, but you don’t trade for size just because it’s size. if you give up kemba for cousins, you better get thomas or freddette or both back along with it. and at that point, we’re basically becoming the kings and that hasn’t worked for them so why would it work for us?

    both evans and cousins both scare the ish out of me. you don’t give up the house for guys like that. you try to steal them. if you miss out, you miss out, but you don’t overpay.

  • Spencer-SDS

    @ROBC u didn’t read^^, i used Mullens because Haywood currently isn’t available to trade: should be later in the season-i believe once the “wait” comes up, forgot how long a team has to wait before they can trade a player that they signed in “free agency”/the waivers

    also Henderson and Diop can’t be amnestied anymore, they will have new contracts by next year, and neither will Diop be on any team next year^^. Unless new contracts being signed after July 1st, 2011 is allowed: if said player already had a contract at that time with the original team: which I doubt and you can’t amnesty mid season

    Salmons: well non amnesty on him sucks^^, but ehh whatever….

    Also I would rather give up Mullens then Biz and i don’t even know if i would take that trade scenario when giving up Biz

    also two LATE lotteries of which we MIGHT get in a few years from Detroit and Portland are easily worth Cousins with Henderson/Haywood in my opinion, if anything they might NOT be worth him, he is better and as young/at most 3 years older then every player in this up-coming draft. You don’t get the ability to get a 15 and 10 player that is just 22 very often if ever.

  • Spencer-SDS

    just a sum up of basically what i’m saying

    Diop, Haywood, Henderson + Portland/Detroit pick or both…
    For:
    Cousins, Salmons, Outlaw

    Henderson: expiring contract
    Diop: expiring contract
    Haywood: cheap
    1 1st round pick, maybe 2…

    Cousins: young talent
    Salmons: big contract
    Outlaw: bigish contract

    we don’t give up ANYONE we have gotten that is under 24 currently on our roster, those guys are alone could be good…i don’t want to get rid of Kemba, Taylor, MKG, Mullens(kinda) Biz…If they mention Kemba, MKG, or Biz i back out…unless WE start getting 1st rounders from them…and even then idk…

  • Spencer-SDS

    And 1st rounders only for Biz…MKG and Kemba i just back out

    man i need some direction on this editing option^^

  • charlottean

    that detroit pick is almost definitely a lottery pick. portland it’s a toss up year by year but they will definitely be competitive with batum, lillard and aldridge set in place. detroit will definitely be good once drummond develops (and he will) but in the next 3 years? they won’t be as bad as they’ve been but I doubt they’re playoff bound when you look at the east outlook over the next 5.

    chicago, indiana, miami, philly, new york are all absolute locks for the playoffs during that span. Atlanta probably as well, brooklyn almost definitely. You’re talking about detroit competing with us, milwaukee, washington, orlando, BOSTON, and cleveland for that 8th spot. If i were betting, I would put detroit’s playoff odds for 2014-15 below any of those teams. washington, cleveland, orlando and us would be the only possible worse teams and I have major doubts of that. the new east is stacked. it’s not 1-8 stacked, but 1-6 is not budging for 5 years. and any of them can realistically chase titles.

    i would go this year’s 1st and the portland pick for cousins. they would be dumb not to take it, they won’t get better surefire value (top 5 pick replacement) elsewhere. not likely. not unless washington offers their pick. we would then keep everybody and essentially add cousins as an early draft pick. let he, mullens and biz all play 32 a night in a 3 man rotation. we could put on our track shoes and GO from now and afford to keep everyone with thomas coming off the books right on time for MKG’s new deal to kick in.

  • Spencer/SDS

    ^^, all i know is i don’t want to lose anymore under 24, Detroit…what is deal on that pick???-conditions to get it???
    plus then we have the “motive” to move Haywood with that lineup, with Thomas, Biz, Cousins and Mullen’s, unless we get the injury bug we should be safe-although right now we are missing Mullen’s and Thomas lol:(

    Henderson I added just cuz well I added him since his contract will be expiring and if it is to get Cousins why not?
    If Mullen’s of biz goes into any deal WE better start getting some picks ourselves…

    Let’s hope for the best outcome, we give up only our first this year and get Cousin-maybe our 2nd as well lol^^, that would be a good deal in itself

    • From RealGM.com – Future Drafts:

      2013 first round draft pick from Detroit
      Detroit’s own 2013 1st round pick to Charlotte (Top-14 Protected in 2013 Draft, top-8 protected in 2014, top-1 protected in 2015 and Unprotected in the 2016 Draft). [Charlotte-Detroit, 06/26/2012]

      That’s the reason I don’t know how valuable the pick is going to be. The Bobcats aren’t going to receive it this year, but with a core of Drummond, Monroe, and Knight, I think they may be just good enough next year that the pick will come to Charlotte, at about 10th in the draft.

      Side note: That RealGM page is my go to source for future draft picks that are owed in trades – they’re very good.

  • Spencer/SDS

    alright thanks^^, then all i know is in 2016 we basically give Chicago our pick since it will not be protected…how the hell we got it to be protected for ?8? years i will never know^^

    Detroit has major potential with Drummond, who is currently one of the best rebounders(over 15 minutes per game) per 40 minutes (I have fallen in love with hoopdata.com) their real issue though is SG…or just spot up shooters in general, they have the big men to go far, especially in the East which is weak there compared to the West…this years draft doesn’t look to have too much “talent” so it might actually be good if Detroit doesn’t get in the playoffs this year…but then again this year is Deep in 7 footers (depending on how many freshmen/sophomores come out) and remember Kemba draft: looked terrible and there have been multiple gems from that draft that weren’t picked top 10, really all depends on what your team needs and then it could look relatively deep (needing a C/PF) or relatively bad (need wing players and no top 5 pick)

  • charlottean

    Brett, it’s possible we get it next year, but probability is against it. it’s still a lottery pick, so they would have to finish outside the bottom 8 AND miss out on the lottery or they would have to finish 6th worst and 3 teams below them make the lottery which I don’t think is possible and if it is it’s powerball odds.

    Again…..miami, new york, indiana, chicago, philly, are playoff locks for the next 5 years and brooklyn and atlanta probably are too. the odds of detroit making the playoffs are horrible during the protection of the pick. It’s not as solid a pick as this year’s but it’s a very solid pick with potential to be something like 2-10. cousins is a headcase…….miami gave up michael beasley for a 2nd rounder. you can’t tell me cousins has more potential than beasley had. he has better stats this year, but potential? guys like cousins don’t get drafted top 5 often and they damn sure don’t get drafted top 5……..eff up a million times…….and then get traded for top 5 picks.

    this whole idea of getting him is exciting but I think we’d be much better off without. I can’t see a scenario where he comes to town and outperforms what we give up AND stays out of trouble AND we win. Just doesn’t seem probable. Think about it……..we got 2 mid 1sts for gerald wallace. Orlando got a few young guys and a bunch of mid to late 1sts for dwight howard. Cousins isn’t dwight howard (as much as I hate howard). We stand a far better chance of succeeding by keeping all our assets than we do dealing them for cousins.

    Somebody mentioned milsap……he’s a solid player, but if we were going to throw up a godfather deal for cousins, why not give up less for enes kanter? Why not give up far less for thomas robinson? or derrick williams? or any other guy with almost as great talent and NO MENTAL HANDICAPS. don’t over inflate the value of the guys talent and deflate the value of chemistry. derrick coleman was insanely talented too. we won more with p.j. brown.

  • Mathew Lewis

    Why does everyone want Derrick Williams? He is not a very good player. Cousins is by far the most talented of all the players mentioned and although he does come with baggage, it is a risk worth considering. The problem with being risk averse in a situation like this is this is one of the few opportunities the Bobcats are going to have to acquire a potential star player. Unless things drastically change, the team is going to have a difficult time acquiring such a player via free agency. The more likely scenario would be overpaying for a restricted guy and soon after regretting it. Therefore, the team is going to have to look to the trade market in addition to the draft. The other positive with acquiring a younger player like Cousins is the fact he would be a restricted free agent versus unrestricted, essentially guaranteeing his spot on the roster for years to come unless the organization decided to let him walk (highly unlikely).

  • charlottean

    but you have to consider cost. Not only would we be giving up a lot to get him surely, but we would have to extend him next year to surely a monster deal. On the flip side, you’ve got an additional year with derrick williams, wouldn’t have to give up as much, and wouldn’t have the baggage. Saying he’s not a very good player is circumstantial. the guy is behind kevin love. He had some MONSTER games in the preseason with love out. He’s had some good games in the regular season.

    Keep in mind how bad kemba was last year vs. this year vs. next year. Evan Turner. O.J. Mayo. Kevin Love. not everybody is microwave efficient. Some guys take time. He’s no doubt much smaller than cousins. He’s not REALLY what we need. But it’s the comparison. Why give up the house for a guy when you can get 85% of him for nothing? you get more than the other 15% from the guys you didn’t have to give up. WAY less risk in that move. And he’s not the only guy like that available. Ed Davis comes to mind, Ilyasova can probably be had for expirings, chris copeland for the right price, motiejunas is sitting, mosgov is sitting, like i said before enes kanter.

    NONE of these guys are as talented as cousins and most are not as big (some are or bigger) but NONE of them come with the baggage/risk and none of them would cost much at all to acquire and some have ceilings just as high.

    Keep this in mind……it takes a while for young talent to become great players. We have those kind of guys. Elite guys are the ones that separate early and win early (think lebron, think durant, think kobe, think wade, think shaq). Cousins is not in that group AND he has baggage. That immediately makes him NOT worth what people are talking about giving up. He’s not shaq, he’s not dwight. He’s derrick coleman. You don’t give up the house for derrick coleman. You gladly take him at the right price and hope he turns into zach randolph, but you also know that he can go all andray blatche at any moment.

    Look how dumb the nuggets look for paying mcgee all that money. That would be our future.

  • charlottean

    Note: I know mcgee and cousins are completely different levels of talent, but the proportion would be similar if not the same.

  • Spencer/SDS

    well it did look like McGee turned the corner in the playoffs last year, he played extremely efficiently in the playffs-first time he was there

  • CHARLOTTEHORNETS

    You do not give up Kemba or MKG for him….everyone else is expendable. I say a trade of Sessions, Haywood, and Mullens plus a 1st round pick either Portland/Detroit for Cousins and Salmons. That is a fair trade for how much of a headcase Cousins is and it lets Sacramento go the way of clearing up space and helps the Charlotte Hornets (soon to be) change their name and actually have a team worthy of donning that name on their jerseys.

  • Spencer/SDS

    Cousins with a 30+ 20+ game, dude isn’t shaq, but seriously, 1-2 years down he is better then Howard…most overrated center in history…still won’t give up Biz, Kemba, MKG for him, Mullen’s idk…

  • charlottean

    cousins is essentially healthy sean may with an effed up brain. and longer/taller. i would take him over howard post back problem but pre? no. howard is overrated because he has no killer instinct. he’s equally phyisically insane as shaq was. he just doesn’t want it bad enough. he’s very koolaid.

    cousins has the killer instinct but it comes out in the wrong ways. very rasheed like in that regard.

    i would give up mullens in a second for him and i’m one of mullens’ biggest fans. Our ideal scenario here is this years pick for cousins and maybe throw in a 2nd. or both of the conditional 1sts and a 2nd and a salary swap. you give mullens and biz 6-7 a year, cousins 12-13, kemba 7, mkg, 10, hendo 7….that’s 50 for 6 guys and reasonable to expect….that would leave a ton of money for either more than what’s listed OR another solid piece OR to scatter around role players like a sessions, taylor, etc. would be a beautiful thing. have 3 bigs, 3 wings, 2 pgs all 26 and under with track shoes on.

    i mean looking at that closer…..it might be worth throwing all 3 picks (this years + the 2 conditional picks). I think the problem is….i’m not sure we can trade this years pick until the order is set because of owing the pick the chicago. we would probably have to involve them some how to release that pick either by giving them a different pick or guaranteeing it to be 2014′s with no conditions. That would be a TON to give up.

  • Spencer/SDS

    EQUALLY PHYSICALLY INSANE??? what???? he is athletic..the most athletic Center in the league, but Shaq was just another level, he was that athletic but OVER 7 feet tall and was stronger, more aggressive in the post and when he wasn’t yet in LA (2 years before LA) he was just as quick as/fast/jumping ability as Howard

    Now Howard is an athlete that is very rare in this world…he is probably one of one right now…considering how strong he is as well…but he just doesn’t have the physical dominance as Shaq did…dude is too short. Shaq…well i could go on forever about him lol^^

    not saying Howard isn’t an athletic freak-just saying Shaq was possibly the most athletic freakidy freak ever…ehh i wish he had reached his potential…:*(

    hmm that Chicago dillima.. could we make a deal where if we don’t get into the playoffs Sacramento get’s our pick, if we do Sacramento still get’s our pick and maybe Chicago get’s something else….even with Cousins/i hope/ we wouldn’t get into the playoffs…lol…

  • charlottean

    howard is shorter than shaq and recorded a higher max reach by an inch. I’m not sure of the standing reach but I believe shaq was an inch or 2 higher which would mean howard has a few inches on his vert. has a way lower body fat count and I would imagine his raw strength numbers are equally as impressive if not better than shaq’s. shaq was just way better at applying all of that to IN GAME situations.

    to me it’s like comparing julius peppers and reggie white. peppers was the more gifted physically but white was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better of the player. that’s how I feel about howard vs. shaq. Howard/peppers dominate games from time to time. Shaq/reggie white dominated for over a decade straight. (note, i feel like we’re kids arguing over super hero abilities, a la fresh)

    name another player that falls into the category of howard and shaq. cousins has size and skill but none of the athleticism. the closest thing I can come up with is shawn kemp and there is a TON of distance between those 2 and he.

  • Spencer/SDS

    Wilt possibly…dude was said to have an 30-40 inch vert…although the truth of it is obviously in doubt…he also did force you to HAVE to shoot from the free throw line…i believe when he was in college he would just find a way to dunk it by jumping from the free throw line…once again i don’t know about the truth of it but hey, it just shows to his athleticism and length

    Wilt could easily have been dominate in today’s game as well as in the 90s (although no where near the numbers he would have been dominate)…and as he aged he gained the size and strength

    the main factor is just strength…so i would say 3 in NBA history with their type of athleticism…and strength/size, LeBron would be there but he just doesn’t have that length…basically a more compact version of Howard with well everything else Howard sucks at(which is a lot) i remember hearing rumors of a (New York???) kid that died before his career took off and that he could touch the TOP of the backboard…but that doesn’t really count too much…

    http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=253531
    that is a link to an old article(no idea how someone found it) about Wilt dunking from the free throw line…

  • Spencer/SDS

    Wilt wasn’t just tall…you can look at old rosters in his time period, there were a few 7 footers in the league…he was just 21st century type athleticism(if not better then anyone we have yet to see again) with that height, holy shit do i wish he did not die (sorry for the language) i would love to hear his stories…

    Plus he is a KU boy, which just makes it better^^

  • Spencer/SDS

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEGabY6DMMw
    they should just give the blocking record to Wilt, i have no doubt he would have it-7 ft 1, around 7 ft 8 wingspan…

  • Spencer/SDS

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi9u9jXjPJE
    shaq posterizing Howard despite being (38?) maybe 37 and Howard being 24-25?? at the time…lol, Shaq i would say was/is bigger then Howard…Howard is Beyombo Size…
    Shaq’s combine measurements were:

    7 ft 1 w/o shoes…so 7 ft 3…idk about the legit ability of that but lets say it is true..(i would say 7 ft 1 in shoes) was before they starting measuring in shoes i guees??? 7 ft 7 wingspan, 9’5 wingspan, 36 max vert

    Dwight Howard 6 ft 10.25, 7 ft 4’5 wing, 9 ft 3’5 standing reach 35.5 max vert…

    not as big^^, also look up Mammadou N’Diaye(if you have that last name u will likely be tall) dude has an 8 ft 1 wingspan, is 7 ft 4 and a senior in high school right now (i believe) not a great(or average) EXTREMELY raw player but i don’t have much doubt that he can get in, isn’t a bad athlete

  • Spencer/SDS

    reason i said 7 ft 3 is because on average players gain about 1.5-2 inches of height with shoes…although i assume that his actually height was 7 ft 1 IN shoes…

  • Spencer/SDS

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF8yJ1J1W7Q

    to have an athlete like Chamberlain lol….the NBA would cringe

  • Spencer/SDS

    sorry to all if(did) blow up this message board with Wilt stuff lol^^, just forgot how good he was for a month or two and had to watch all of this ^^

  • james

    love queen city hoops