Bobcats hold off the Raptors, win 100-95 « Queen City Hoops

Bobcats hold off the Raptors, win 100-95

Toronto Raptors 95 FinalRecap | Box Score 100 Charlotte Bobcats
Josh McRoberts, PF Shot Chart 33 MIN | 4-5 FG | 0-0 FT | 4 REB | 5 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 11 PTS | +7This was an efficient game for McRoberts, albeit not awe-inspiring. 11 points on 5 shots is about all you can ask for from the big guy, throw in 5 assists and you get a solid offensive output. He looked lost at times defensively, and was unable to make a real impact on the glass, but this is to be expected. Overall, it was a slightly above average game for the forward.

Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, SF Shot Chart 31 MIN | 2-5 FG | 1-3 FT | 4 REB | 1 AST | 1 STL | 1 BLK | 0 TO | 5 PTS | +19Michael Kidd-Gilchrist is a player that needs to step up in Walker’s absence, and his performance Monday afternoon isn’t going to cut it. He was largely non-existent on the offensive end, and was unable to make his presence felt on the glass either. 30 minutes of action should produce more than 5 points and 4 rebounds. The Bobcats need more out of MK-G.

Al Jefferson, C Shot Chart 38 MIN | 9-18 FG | 4-4 FT | 19 REB | 7 AST | 0 STL | 2 BLK | 2 TO | 22 PTS | +7What else can Al Jefferson do for this team? With Walker sidelined, it is going to be largely up to Jefferson to pick up the slack, and that’s exactly what he did Monday afternoon against the Raptors. With 22 points, 19 boards, and 7 assists, Jefferson had a huge game and made plays on both ends, including a couple key defensive plays down the stretch, to seal the game for the ‘Cats.

Ramon Sessions, PG Shot Chart 34 MIN | 6-10 FG | 10-11 FT | 2 REB | 2 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 3 TO | 23 PTS | +10Stepping into the starting spot for an injured guard is a tough position to be in, especially when the starting guard is as important to his team as Kemba Walker is, but Sessions did did everything you could ask of him in his first game filling in. He ran the offense, hit some big shots, and got the the line 11 times. You would like to see more assists out of him, especially playing 34 minutes, but his 23 points worked to make up for it. If he can continue to play like this in the absence of Walker, then the ‘Cats might be okay.

Gerald Henderson, SG Shot Chart 34 MIN | 4-11 FG | 8-10 FT | 4 REB | 5 AST | 0 STL | 1 BLK | 3 TO | 16 PTS | +5Solid, albeit average game from the former Blue Devil. Henderson continues to struggle on the defensive end, as Demar Derozan had his way with him on several occasions. He was able to make some plays on the offensive end however, as he chipped in 16 points, right around his average, with 4 boards and 5 assists.

Anthony Tolliver, PF Shot Chart 17 MIN | 2-4 FG | 2-3 FT | 0 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 8 PTS | -12Tolliver tried to make the most of his minutes by putting up a point almost every two minutes of in-game action, but didn’t provide much else outside of scoring. A rebound or two from the backup forward would have been nice.

Cody Zeller, C Shot Chart 15 MIN | 0-0 FG | 2-2 FT | 1 REB | 2 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 2 PTS | -2Not a great game from Zeller, who was all but invisible for most of it. Zeller continued to get exposed inside on the defensive end, and didn’t bring much to the offensive end either. The rookie is still finding his way, and games like this make that all too evident.

Bismack Biyombo, C Shot Chart 10 MIN | 1-1 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 1 AST | 0 STL | 1 BLK | 1 TO | 2 PTS | -4Didn’t see much from Bis this game, as he was only able to pull down one rebound and score one basket in 10 minutes of action. The center is still super raw, and won’t be a consistent contributor until he does some more developing.

Jannero Pargo, PG Shot Chart 14 MIN | 4-7 FG | 0-0 FT | 2 REB | 4 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 11 PTS | -5The back-up point guards did everything that they could, and more, in the first game without Kemba Walker. Sessions did his thing in the starting spot, and Pargo provided some bombs off the bench, dropping in 3 three’s for 14 points, in 11 minutes. Four assists also. Great game from Pargo, who will need to continue to produce with Walker sidelined.

Chris Douglas-Roberts, SG Shot Chart 14 MIN | 0-4 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 1 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | 0Not much to show for 14 minutes of action for Chris Douglas-Roberts, who continues to struggle off the Bobcats bench.

Steve Clifford
The game plan in the first half worked well, as the offense looked kind of crisp. Filling in one of the team’s top players, Walker in this case, can be difficult, and Clifford did a decent job of plugging new guys in and keeping the team on track. The second half however was slightly more disturbing, as the Bobcats almost gave the game back. Not the greatest in-game adjustments from Clifford there, as the Raptors continued to hit three after three to storm back into the game.

Five Things We Saw

  1. Great production from the PG position. With Walker sidelined for several games, the Bobcats will need Sessions/Pargo to produce, and that is exactly what they did. The two combined for 34 points and hit numerous big shots; exactly what they will need to continue to do to keep the Bobcats afloat.
  2. The Bobcats gave up entirely too many offensive rebounds; 17 to be exact. Second-chance opportunities alone kept the Raptors in the game in the first half, as the ‘Cats couldn’t secure a defensive rebound. Giving up that many second chance opportunities will usually cost the team the game, and it almost did. This is an issue the Bobcats need to address going forward.
  3. The Bobcats gave up a lot of points in the paint. Al Jefferson can only do so much, and Charlotte needs some of its other bigs to step up on the defensive end. The Raptors were getting into the paint and to the basket with ease, scoring 44 total points in the paint, and this was the Raptors. A team with a fierce frontcourt could do some serious damage against Charlotte.
  4. Al Jefferson is good. Big Al continues to do it all for the Bobcats, putting up an impressive 38 min, 22 pts, 19 reb, 7 ast stat-line while making some clutch plays on the defensive end as well.
  5. The Bobcats, who were trouncing Toronto in the first half, gave up an enormous lead to almost snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. The team needs to work on protecting a lead.

13 comments to Bobcats hold off the Raptors, win 100-95

  • charlottean

    dude is simultaneously the reason we go up 30 and the reason we almost lose. how difficult is it for him to contest a layup? good things happen when he does (see the steal on derozan’s drive late).

    can’t compete in the NBA without protecting the rim. we’re on pace for 34 wins and that’s assuming kemba’s injury doesn’t hurt us. absolutely in no man’s land with nowhere to go. jefferson reminds me so much of derrick coleman with a better attitude. always overpaid, never winning anything. always uber talented, never playing defense. score on anyone, anyone could score on him. so frustrating to watch. he would look A LOT better with a defensive stopper at the 4 alongside him. you put him with ibaka, and it’s deadly. a jefferson for perkins deal needs to happen in the worst way. throw in like 8 OKC picks and perry jones or something.

  • NCTony

    Please provide details to support your comments. I doubt you were at the game (I was) nor have you looked at the NBA detailed stats published daily after the games.

    You speak in such absolutes as if your opinion is the only right one out there.

    Another Comment you make is put him with Ibaka, why not put him with your future star Biyombo at Center and Al at forward, should be lethal no? Why trade him?

    Lets talk real facts now: Al had 10pts and 10 Boards in Q1.Al played the entire first quarter and Raptors only had 4 second chance points to Bobcats 0, Raptors had 4 points in the paint to Bobcats 16, and Raptors had no Fast Break pts. to Bobcats 4 in Q1. In Q1 there were two layups credited to Raptors 1 to Valanciunas at 4:46 mark ( Their center and his only 2pts of Game) and another to Kyle Lowry at 3:49. Total of 2 layups.

    Biyombo starts Q2 plays first half the qtr., the Raptors score 10 pts. in the Paint to Bobcats 6, Raptors had 12 second chance points to Bobcats 0, and again 0 fast break Points to Cats 3.While the Biz was playing Patterson had a Dunk @ 9:16 and Vasquez has a Layup at the 6:41 mark, at the .26,4 second mark Hayes gets a put back Layup off of Al. 3total Layups with 2 vs the Biz and one vs Al.

    In Q3 Al plays entire Q3. Raptors have 14 pts. in the paint to Bobcats 8, Raptors had 6 second chance points to Bobcats 0, and Raptors 4 Fast break points to the Bobcats 2.At the 4:37 mark, Raptors get their first layup of q3 with DeRozan ( who torched both MKG and Gerald), With Bobcats now up 28, at 3:23 Hayes tips in a missed shot, at 3:06 Vasquez get a driving Layup, at the very end of Q3 both Zeller, and Al didn’t grab a rebound and Hayes puts back a 6 footer to put the score at Cats up 18. Two Layups while Al was in.

    Q4 Biz Starts Q4- 11:47 Patterson Layup, 11:24 Patterson O-RBD and Layup, at 8:12 Lowry another Layup – Biz gets pulled after 3:56 with Cats now only up 13. With Al now back in the Game @ 8:06, Lowry gets a layup @ 4:11 (after a barrage of 3pt shots), Derozan steals ball from Al and gets uncontested layup at 2:33, and at 1:21 Hayes tips in a missed shot. In q4 Raptors had 16 pts in the paint to Bobcats 2, 6 second chance points to the Bobcats 0, and 15 fast break points to the Bobcats 0, most of which were shot as 3′s early in Q4 to get back into the game. So 3 quick Layups vs. the Biz early in the qtr. probably got him yanked, With Al in, you had the 1 layup, one tip in, and the Steal (uncontested).

    So I am looking for the so called layup line and I don’t see it. The two guys Al was covering today had 2 and 12 pts

    I am not going to get into anything but the facts, as this became a name calling session. You are entitled to your opinion, but calling people clowns and effing stupid, use your brain etc. etc., is really not what this is about. You can call the coach stupid, you can want to see Biz developed at the expense of Al, can say we blew developing DJ ( although the stats do not bear that out he played over 26 minutes per game for us- can be in love with that pick over Lopez ( really who cares anymore), Can Ajinca would be another Dikembe by now if only we played him 30 minutes a game (but if you recall he fouled an awful lot early on and he was thinner than a scarecrow then), You can even say Zeller should play and post up a 150 lbs. Rashard Lewis who actually is 235 lbs., Adam Morrison would have been the next Larry Bird if he didn’t blow out his knee, – Everyone can be a “dude”too.

    You clearly are not an authority on anything, just another guy with an opinion. you should at least know what you are talking about, quit trying to be a bully, and have facts to back up your opinions.

    This is my last attempt to try to make this a civil discussion.

    PS what does my age have anything to do with anything here..?

  • Spencer/SDS

    I didn’t watch the game but a few things @NCTONY:
    1) MKG and Henderson i’m sure played FAR more minutes with Al then they did with Biyombo as did Sessions (all 3 are good to decent defenders in this league. Biz (more then likely, didn’t watch the game today) was with Tolliver, Pargo and CDR…Tolliver is an awful defender at the SF (has slow feet and hip movement, also stands to tall IMO) people can blow by him all day, Pargo (don’t have much to go off of since we haven’t seem him play) is more then likely a below average defender…plus Vasquez had 15 pts, 7 rebounds and 9 assists in just 24 minutes (10 of that at PG, more then likely those 10 had him against Pargo, and Lowry played against Pargo (assumtion) for 4 minutes, huge mismatches…CDR saw DeRozan defensively at least for 5 minutes and Vasquez for 9 minutes. Point of all this??? Slow defenders on the wings forces an defensive presence generally to leave the box for help defense, he is then put out of potential to get rebounds (generally) due to this and also requires another defender to rotate over (with CDR and Pargo both being new to playing time, I doubt they are doing this efficiently). Since I didn’t get to watch the game I can’t really see who defender (Biz vs Patterson, or Hayes whoever) but since you said Biz gave Patterson an easy ORB and layup my assumtion is that he generally defended against him…which is a bad idea in of itself. Patterson is a GREAT 3 pt shooter and mid range jumper. He shot 46% from 3 last yr, and 49% from 16-23 feet, what does this mean??? Biz is likely being forced out of the paint (this would be Clifford’s fault if in fact Biz is being wasted to guard a shooting PF when the wing defenders are so bad, putting him further out of position to defend the paint or get in good rebounding positions).

    I got most of this just from looking at minutes between both teams and determining who was likely guarding who through those minutes, very easy since it appears that Pargo never played at the 2 guard (vice versa for sessions) since they had a combines 48 minutes as did our 2s (MDR and Henderson) making it relatively easy to Guess who was guarding who in those minutes. Zeller also isn’t a very good defender in of himself, he needs togain weight, everyone knows this, his fortay is on offense (which Clifford is squandering.

    Jefferson and Biz should be playing next to each other, Jefferson is a super star PF on Karl Malone levels nearly IMO, he needs a Biz/big shot blocker/defender to help him out…McRoberts and Jefferson isn’t proving to play out as well, and Jefferson is proving to be MORE then capable to play McRoberts PF roll as a distributor this yr from the top of the key, if not better…McRoberts of recent is also proving that his rebounding is a bit lack luster, and his offense (although far more developed then Biz’s) isn’t starter quality, he brings nothing to the table at PF that Jefferson doesn’t have (3pt range being the exception, which we rarely see game to game) while Biyombo brings defense and rebounding at a far better rate then McRoberts. Biz’s % per rebound chance is very high, despite putting himself in bad positions sometimes due to help defense etc.

    Anyway, Jefferson has been a lay up line in many another game, generally due to lack of effort/rotating over and just watching the ball going up and defending the shot extremely weakly…specifically the 2nd bucks game…that was extremely disappointing watching them just jog past him half the time.

  • charlottean

    tony you are arguing that jefferson didn’t give up a layup line these past several games because valancunius and hayes didn’t score a lot. just look at what you are saying.

    and then you imply that ibaka and biyombo are at all the same player. ibaka is a jump shooter. ibaka isn’t going to go head to head with dwight howard. biyombo and jefferson together don’t provide spacing. you want to talk advanced stats? look at jefferson’s career defensive numbers. look at opponent shot charts with jefferson on vs. off.

    i know you’re arguing just to argue right now – i know you saw lebron run the exact same play going at jefferson like 5 times in the 2nd half in overtime and not once did jefferson shut off lebron’s route, not once did he contest the drive. he has complete apathy/inability to be a defensive stopper.

    stop for a second and think about what i’m saying: elite offensive player, horrible defender. this isn’t my personal opinion on an island like my opinion of morrison’s potential. this is the common reputation for the guy league-wide and backed up by his career resume. the guy has never won anything for a reason.

    ajinca went for 10 and 6 last night.

    augustin had 27 and 4 in another win. playing time is not the only variable. he clocked a ton of minutes at the 2 early on. he played like 12 mpg year 2 which is what completely stunted the progress he made year one. year 3 he had a solid year but should have been given the green light. he was a way better scorer than jackson or wallace and was treated like mario chalmers next to wade and lebron.

    we let the guy walk. we invested another pick on walker instead of leonard or vucuvic or whoever. there’s no doubt in my mind that walker has improved to the point where he’s close to dj’s level, but no doubt dj is a wayyyyyyy better shooter and wayyyyy better passer. walker makes more plays defensively. how many mpg did walker get year 2? 12?

    and walker didn’t have anywhere near as good a rookie year aaaaaand was over a year older as a rookie.

    also might want to look up hyperbole. oh and as for civility……you’re the dude that was throwing threats around on the internet like you’re a tough guy, anthony. come on dude. civility left the building a long time ago. you continue to say dumb ish and get mad at me because i’m squashing your fantasies.

    i honestly don’t get it…..you’re on the opposition of: jefferson being bad at defense and the bobcats being bad at developing young talent.

    THAT’S WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING AGAINST.

    oh yeah….blame that blown lead on the guy who played 10 minutes. he was on the floor for 9 of the 35 points scored in the 4th. keeping in mind that 4 minutes is a third of the quarter…….that would be a pace of 27 – not 35. biyombo didn’t foul lowry (and get a gift back from lowry on the line).

    5-4 without, 13-21 with. i’m only stating facts but i guess you hate that.

    i bet you think anthony bennett lacks talent because mike brown (worst coach in the league) isn’t playing him after a shooting slump following shoulder surgery for a rookie (huge surprise there).

    we aren’t getting the best out of anyone (not even al). and that’s been consistently the problem.

  • NCTony

    Again – I was speaking only of yesterday’s game. They scored from the outside predominantly – not layup line.

    Yes Al has a rep for being slow of foot and not great defender but got 19 boards. You have to agree the guy has value. I’m not saying he’s a great defender either, he is just was not a layup line in yesterday’s game. Not talking past or future , just yesterday.

    Lebron going at Al is debate able, and Lebron was hitting pull up Jumpers vs Tolliver, Henderson MKG . But then again who really stops Lebron in today’s NBA?

    Right now I am of the opinion, Biyombo has regressed, ( I was hoping for development), and disappointed in Zellers play, who is getting meaningful minutes. He didn’t even attempt a shot yesterday.

    As for Bennett I am surprised he has not showed out this year. Not followed Cavs much to give an opinion, it’s obvious Brown is not a great head coach.

    Now let’s get back to name calling, I have no fantasies your squashing, I again didn’t say you were dumb, like you are telling me again, I’m saying it’s not that we are bad at developing talent, I’m saying we are bad at picking talent at all. It’s hard to develop bad players. DJ has played well for 30 days with Bulls, in year 2 DJ was injured if you recall.

    Facts Both MKG and Taylor were playing in the 5/4 record, and both have been out for 19 games during that 13/21, so it’s not Apples to Apples and who’s to say 5/4 could not have been 6/3 with Al?

    AJINCA was tall awkward lanky thin and much worse than Biyombo at that point. He seems to have polished his game up in 6 years, and looks like a decent reserve today. Maybe Biyombo does same thing, do you want to wait that long and give up a roster spot and cap space?

    What you are saying is – let’s play and develop the young guys now for the future. I would totally agree with that, if they could help us win some now and more later, I just don’t think these guys are talented enough to be future serviceable NBA players. Now or in the future. You think they can be. I’d trade Zeller for Bennets future now, for the facts you stated.

    I could be wrong, I think it’s wrong to think we would be better off now Playing Biyombo over Jefferson flaws and all. Zeller is getting meaningful minutes – but he is not impressing anyone yet.

  • charlottean

    lebron going at Al is debatable now? did you watch the game at all? every single time he drove in the 2nd half it was in sideline PnR with Al’s man or it was blow by on tolliver where al has the help. and al didn’t even contest or foul once. not at all debatable. no lebron isn’t stoppable. he’s not. but you can’t just concede layups to him. you had to of seen what hibbert did to him in the conference finals last year and how scared miami was of that.

    al has incredible offensive value that is completely negated by what he gives up. that’s why his teams never win. there is a REASON his teams don’t win. there is a REASON we’re 5-4 without and 13-21 with. i know it’s not apples to apples. nothing is apples to applies in basketball. NOTHING is. part of the reason why people fail to isolate enough variables in advanced statistics to understand what it is they are actually measuring. another reason why clifford is an idiot for buying into +/- in regards to adrien.

    I wouldn’t be opposed to a zeller for bennett trade. I think they are comparable talents which is why they were both top 5 picks and likely would have been even if different teams were picking. ESPECIALLY if the best 5 teams were picking. but bennett won’t be any better catching the ball at the elbow and never on the block. and playing limited amounts.

    I don’t disagree with the idea that you can pick the wrong guy. I disagree that WE picked the wrong guy. I don’t even remember what it was that you said that prompted me to call you out on it (i would have to look it up) but it wasn’t something factually correct at all.

    Augustin has been good for more than 30 days, he just hasn’t had much of a role for the past couple of years. watch how long this continues for him. even more so with hinrich probably missing time now. the dude is getting BETTER, not worse.

    ajinca was tall and lanky and HIGHLY skilled. we shouldn’t have drafted him if we weren’t going to wait. that’s the consistent theme. if we want READY guys, we need to trade the picks or draft 23 year olds. you don’t draft 18 and 19 year olds and give up on them after 2 years. guys don’t hit their prime until 26. most 18 year olds ARE skinny. look at noel. look at davis. look at garnett. look at marc gasol. look at everybody in shape not named lebron or dwight howard. you don’t draft those guys if you aren’t going to play them up and wait on them. you just waste your pick that way. you say it’s the player that is the problem? because he isn’t older when we draft him? or because he gets drafted to the wrong team? the common denominator continues to be us and the fans continue to blame the picks, not the franchise.

    you look at jefferson and see his offense. biz is the SAME level of talent, on defense. I argue that, at age 27….biz’ offense will be better than jefferson’s defense. If given the chance to develop it. he isn’t going to get better by not playing. and him not getting better means the team not getting better. give up a roster spot? he’s earned that. dude will be on a roster somewhere as long as he can run and jump. cap space? he’s on rookie scale. after that he’ll probably be cheaper than your average starting center. which is ANOTHER reason you keep biz and move jefferson. biz will give you the same net result but because it’s ugly, he’ll cost half as much. gives you more budget for elite scoring.

    and again none of what we’re doing with zeller plays to his strengths. it’s fine to expect zeller to add a midrange (and 3 point) shot to his game. that’s fine. but to ask him to essentially be a small forward after being a center isn’t exactly going to help him get started. give him some easy buckets mixed in. give him some pick and roll. give him some post ups. give him some face ups on the baseline. he’s being given the ball at the elbow over and over and over and over and over and not producing. ok……? how would jefferson look in that role? it plays to mcroberts strengths but nobody else. and again…..why draft the guy if you aren’t going to play him and be patient.

    you don’t spend top 5 picks on guys that you won’t invest and build around. MKG and Zeller should be treated like the co-captains of the team and given the ball as if they are on max contracts. that’s what top 5 picks equate to. if they were given that much and THEN they failed……that’s a different thing. that hasn’t happened. I believe MKG is the youngest guy in NBA history to have 25 and 12 in a game and he did it twice. and then we told him he couldn’t play offense. and cut his playing time.

    i agree with what you say about taylor and mkg being out during that stretch, but they were hardly playing before they got hurt. and all that does to me is prove that they hold more value than he does. tolliver and CDR are legit nba roster talents. unless MKG is the stud that he is, the drop off wouldn’t be so apparent. if al is as impactful as everybody makes it out to seem……how come he can’t overcome?

    and if DJ weren’t as good as he is……how come joakim noah is able to “overcome” the loss of derrick rose and luol deng by having a better record since they’ve been removed from the equation? what’s the added element there? you’re telling me that the kid that had 5 games of 25 or more as a 20 year old rookie who only topped 30 minutes 21 times that year…………THAT guy…….shouldn’t have been given the reigns and the green light and the franchise be built around him year 2? walker would not have succeeded if year 2 he hadn’t been given 100% attention by dunlap. walker was FAR WORSE as a rookie than augustin.

    augustin being hurt year 2? he played in 80 games. if you’re suggesting a nagging ankle injury was the reason we brought in flip murray and played augustin less in his 2nd year…..you don’t know larry brown. if the injury was the reason, he should have sat to get it healed and THEN come back and played starter’s minutes.

    there’s just no scenario for any guy other than MAYBE walker where we have handled development correctly.

    morrison was given less than half a season following a return from a severe ACL injury. of which he topped 20 minutes 12 times, 30 minutes just once. the guy had a stretch of 3 games early in the year of 16, 15, and 14 points followed up by only playing 12 minutes in garbage time in the 4th game of that stretch. first 3 games were 2 close losses and a win. game 4 was a blowout loss.

    but we picked the wrong guy. it had NOTHING to do with how he was coached, or the injury, or that we gave up on him so early into his career. nothing to do with that, everything to do with the pick? it’s what I keep hearing over and over and over from the fans that the picks are the problem. they can’t possible be the problem this many times if none of them were supposed to be 2nd round picks. we’re talking about guys that are going next if we pick someone else. we’re talking about 10 or 11 guys. walker and okafor are the only ones that worked out and both of them played and had a coach dedicate their job to their development.

    good players get drafted to bad teams every year and it derails their career. if you think otherwise, keep watching augustin in chicago. watch kendall marshall in LA.

    if you can judge zeller and biz now and know what they are at 27 or 28…….how come you weren’t raving about alan anderson 5 years ago? they gotta play these young guys and get more value out of them or they gotta stop drafting them. simple as that. and you don’t draft them, you never land a superstar. if you don’t invest in them, they never become a superstar.

    we just got torched by demar derozan. derozan is playing at his maximum. he is gerald henderson level talent AT BEST. he’s being absolutely maxed out value wise. we have nobody that’s close to being maxed out value wise. most guys are well below their potential. mcroberts is the closest thing to being maxed out and that’s because he’s a weak talent.

    show me all of the guys we’ve drafted that were so bad nobody would have drafted them right after us, and so bad that they didn’t dominate college ball or international ball or both or d-league or whatever. there’s a reason ajinca landed on his feet. there’s a reason darko still gets contract offers. there’s a reason augustin got called by chicago THE SECOND he got waived. there’s a reason morrison got big money in europe and played well out there for a year before going all in on nba or bust. there’s a reason he dominated summer league before retiring.

    henderson didn’t look like much when he wasn’t playing. now he probably holds the best value on our team. kemba would be ahead of him but the pg market is so saturated and the sg market so depleted. play biz and zeller and we might lose 5 less games this year and win 10 more next year. keep doing the same ish over and over and we’ll keep getting the same results.

    headed nowhere slowly. again.

  • NCTony

    Ok now thats more like it….Good healthy debate, its not that I am more right than you, its just an opinion, and you have yours. Thats good healthy discussion about a team apparently we want to see get better and win.

    Henderson and Derozan are good examples of players allowed to develop, both showed some serious promise early on. I thought that Biyombo was showing promise off and on last year, and I am so disappointed in what he has shown the same this year, and I am sure, if he played anywhere near what he showed last year he would play more now and give Al more minutes to rest, but something has happened (it could be coaches opinion, but with Ewing here to help in that area-) why the step back? I am not getting the regression.

    Zeller has athletic ability and I think he is being developed, but there are so many times he is over matched both physically,and mentally. I hope he makes progress as the year wears on.

    There are times I am hoping for a trade for a pure scorer outside shooter, as this team is close, and any playoff experience can only help a young team, but there is also benefit to get the draft picks. I am not sure if we have anything of value to trade other than McRoberts, Henderson, Gordons expiring, Sessions expiring ( to a team needing a backup (PG, and of Course Al would be a nice assett to move in the future, if this team can’t make any progress sure as hell beats the players whos salaries we dropped ( Thomas and Diop).

    Not really sure why we don’t let gordon play some, would be interesting to get an understanding from the inside why hes not playing ( is it really his bad defense?) – CDR is an ok player who can drive. Not impressed with his outside shooting, Tolliver serves a role on this team, and I guess he has taken Gordons spot as the designated 3. Tolliver gives effort every time I see him on the court.

    Thanks—

  • charlottean

    biz’ shooting % is up a lot, rebound % and per minute is up a lot, turnovers up a bit, but minutes are wayyyyy down. block % is even. points per 36 is up. his free throws are up to 55% from the 48% he posted as a rookie.

    when the guy has played, he’s played well. 9 games of 20 or more minutes, 5 of which equated to double digit rebounds. 2 games under 20 minutes played netted double digit rebounds. every game he’s played more than 30 minutes he’s had double digit rebounds and multiple blocks. and we won (3-0).

    the guy just needs to play. the multiple 20 rebound games in preseason showed what kind of player he can be. just needs to play. shot blockers/rebounders like him aren’t worthless. most championship teams have a guy like biz. ben wallace, dennis rodman, malik rose, chris anderson, tyson chandler, kendrick perkins, all come to mind. dude is shooting 63% from the field. after 46 and 45 in his first 2 years.

    jefferson for eric gordon would be a nice move. i wouldn’t mind a package for stoudemire either. dude can still play at a high level and his injuries would actually benefit us by giving the young guys the MVP level mentor guy while still having playing time. could probably get new york to throw in anyone and anything we want not named carmello to shed his contract too. jefferson just doesn’t fit the other guys. and the other guys will be better than jefferson when they are his age – if we don’t ruin them before hand.

  • Dave Walshy

    Wow, such spirited debate for the Bobcats. I tend to agree with a lot of what Charlottean says but I think its a pretty big stretch to say that Augustin is better than Kemba. I actually agree that Kemba was a bad pick at the time and they would have been better off just going with Augustin because he was/is a good player but that situation seems to get forgotten because Kemba is like the only draft pick that has worked out for this team ever. Honestly, I started following this team because Kemba is my favorite player and I’m a huge Uconn fan (this team loves Uconn players!) but I don’t think its bias to say that Kemba is better. Maybe if Dj had been handled properly it would be pretty even but Kemba is just simply more athletic and more dynamic in basically every aspect except spot up shooting and passing (I actually think they are both good and underrated passers that have been victims of circumstance).

    I agree in general that AL is a bad fit but I actually think it could work if they figured out how to use him properly. Unfortunately I think they are currently handling the situation about as poorly as possible. Building a team around Jefferson as the focal point is doomed to fail because he has too many major weaknesses but I think he could be legitimately pretty valuable if he was used somewhat similar to David West in Indiana. They don’t really run their offense through him but they can rely on him to carry their offense for stretches if they need to due to his efficient scoring. His defense also might possibly benefit from using less energy on offense if we didn’t post him up on like every possession or if we just used him for ball movement purposes more instead of just scoring (a la McRoberts). He might not have any interest in this kind of role though so who knows. I don’t know if I think they would trade him until possibly the last year of his contract because I don’t think other teams would give up enough value for him until he is on an expiring.

    As always I am With Charlottean about Biz and Zeller, especially Biz. I actually thought he has looked great whenever I’ve seen him get consistent minutes in both the preseason in regular season. I think advanced stats back this up to as Charlottean has pointed out. For some reason he has just never done as well when getting very limited minutes. I think his defense can compliment Jefferson during stretches where we are relying on Jefferson’s offense. Even though the spacing seems bad it doesn’t really matter because when we are going through Jefferson we just throw it to him on the block and everyone watches him do his nice little moves for 10+ seconds until he shoots. He tends to get tunnel vision so having better shooters on the floor wouldn’t help as much as it normally would. I don’t really know what to think of Zeller but he is 7 foot, very athletic, and has some skills so there is no reason we shouldn’t be playing and using him more. McRoberts is a weak talent and is pretty much peaked so I really don’t see the point of him being our starting PF right now when we have two young prospects and AJ that can play his position. I would honestly already just rather Biyombo be the starting PF based based on production alone or even Zeller just based on potential. Occasionally McBob looks good but if you pay attention the vast majority of the time he isn’t really doing or accomplishing anything. He is a good backup or solid starter (on a San Antonio type of team) but that is really it and he should probably be played as such, and we clearly aren’t a San Antonio type of team so he should probably be a backup. At least Kemba and MKG are good… I really hope once MKG is fully healthy his minutes don’t get limited at all for Tolliver… That seems like something Clifford would do.

    Eric Gordon is nice and would fit well but his contract is kinda terrible considering the injury risk. He seems intriguing for this team but I’m not sure how I’d feel about getting him. He could also help play us out of our draft pick. I would honestly not want Stroudemire at all though.

  • Dave Walshy

    The Ben Gordon situation is kind of baffling. He is talented and shouldn’t be too old but clearly his effort just completely disappears at times and he becomes absurdly careless. I would like to know what is going on there as well.

  • charlottean

    I’ve heard david west’s name be brought up on numerous occasions, but ultimately, al is nowhere near the tough post defender west is. nowhere near as mobile away from the basket either. that’s why al can’t play the 4 (as he should) he just can’t keep up with the ryan andersons, dirk nowitzki’s, serge ibaka’s, andrea bargani’s, blake griffin’s, anthony davis’, kevin love’s, etc. the guy is an absolute liability in either position. he can’t protect the rim and he can’t protect the perimeter. he’s absolutely the ideal bench scorer that you can hide against a guy who can’t score and alongside a guy who can defend. but you don’t pay 13.5 a year for a one way player. kevin martin doesn’t make 13.5 in this CBA for a reason. for that argument, neither does tony allen. if we could talk new orleans into a jefferson for gordon swap, we would be making out like bandits.

    as for ben gordon, his defense and dumb turnovers are just as frustrating. again – he’s a guy that can absolutely light it up offensively but he gets lit up all the same. and he has a horrible attitude by all accounts.

    as for augustin and walker……walker is slightly better in about everything except shooting and passing. he rebounds better, plays harder, defends with more energy and effort, comes up with more loose balls and creates turnovers. but the shooting and the passing is so much more valuable from the pg position IMO. as long as he’s a COMPETENT defender and not getting lit up every night, that is. I mean kendall marshall is a horrible defender, steve nash is a horrible defender. but those kind of guys can win games. it’s not the same as the center position. you can hide a bad wing defender against most teams. especially if you have a rim protector behind him. and by all accounts, augustin is nowhere near as bad as nash or marshall. but offensively? he had/has the potential to rival those steve nash patented 50/40/90 seasons. he’s doing something like 42/40/93 right now. one of the biggest problems he faced here was an inability to get calls at the rim. and a lack of someone to pass to. if tyson chandler had been kept and jackson dealt instead…..we probably would have seen what you see right now with him and noah (which looks waayyyyyyyyy better than rose & noah btw).

    kemba had a far worse start to his career before being given ALL of the franchises support last year. augustin never got that. I bet if he ever had, he would have been a top 10 pg in this league. shooters are too valuable. look at curry. augustin isn’t quite that, but he’s up there when it comes to shooters. kemba has way bigger balls in the clutch though. but you’re talking about like 5% difference on 3′s and 10%+ on free throws. and more assists to less turnovers. and an inch or 2 and some pounds in the size category.

    this is just insanely frustrating. do you have any idea how good we would be next year if we played walker/henderson/mkg/zeller/biz 40 mpg the rest of the way? and then brought in an evan turner or lance stephenson or gordon hayward in the summer? or drafted smart or wiggins or exum or randle?

    going nowhere slowly.

  • Dave Walshy

    I basically agree with your assessment of Al. He isnt David West but I just think that kind of roll would be better for the team than building our entire offensive strategy around him, which I know probably bothers you as much as it does me. He would dominate second units on an almost comically level if we used him as our 6th man/bench scorer but I dont see him liking that roll. I think he could be fine as a starter if the team was built properly. I like Gordon’s game with this team but I just dont trust his health. This team has the talent/character/assets to be a legit threat in the east if management plays their cards right. I have a bad feeling though we are going to be back in rebuild mode in like 2-3 years.

  • charlottean

    i don’t trust his health either, but we have to roll the dice on one of those kind of guys eventually. should have done it with stephen curry when golden state was willing to move him 2 years ago.

    the talent is no doubt there on the roster, but the talent is wilting. nobody watering the plants. at this point i hope they DO trade all the young guys because they stand no chance here. you could put mkg on san antonio or the clippers right now and dude would be a stud. biyombo could be in new orleans or okc or Phoenix just cleaning up. zeller could go anywhere except minny. could you imagine that dude in milwaukee right now getting the kind of run giannetokoumpo is getting?